Loud rattle/grinding noise

[PartyFiesta]

2016 1.6L with a rough idle, loss of power and hesitation

My Fiesta has a rough idle and a loud rattle particularly on acceleration(increases with rpm not speed). Timing, and compression are good, pulled plugs and checked for valve contact with borescope. Only check engine light is cam position sensor. I’ve attached a link to a short video of the noise. I’m leaning towards a transmission issue. Has anyone had this problem before?

https://youtube.com/shorts/QIDdSzgwX9g?si=GkxS9ZG0krx04grA

 

[tabijan]

Can you record under the hood for clearer sound?

It’s not a loose exhaust pipe or heat shield?

Could it be the starter not disengaging?

Did the CEL happen with the rattling or has it been on for a while?

Try the engine momentarily with the serpentine belt removed to rule out water pump, alternator and AC compressor. Block the rear wheels, get the front wheels off the ground and try in D and R.

Sixto
2014 SE 1.6 hatchback 135K miles

 

[PartyFiesta]

I removed the heat shield

Haven't checked the starter

Ran without the belt and no change in sound

CEL is recurring and came on with rattle I believe, I can’t remember

I found another video while driving, the noise comes with pedal position/rpm

https://youtube.com/shorts/QIDdSzgwX9g?si=1-WFffftVjZ9rn1x

 

[tabijan]

Do you have a stethoscope to isolate the sound to the front cover, valve cover, lower block or bell housing? Holding a metal rod against, not in, you ear might do it.

Can you remove enough of the front cover to check the timing belt? The sound is similar to chain slap when you lose tension. I don’t recall belts making noise but I’d want to be sure the belt isn’t failing.

Sixto
2014 SE 1.6 135K miles

 

[PartyFiesta]

I isolated the noise to the driver side of the engine bay. I’ve had the front cover off and the timing belt is okay.

 

[tabijan]

Good for the engine!

You know what you’re doing but I’ll continue anyway.

Maybe the clutch? My next step is check the six nuts holding the clutch to the flex plate (feels weird saying that). IIRC you do that through the starter mount, not below like with torque converters. Might be a torn flex plate. I’ve dealt with a couple of those in old MB Diesels.

Sixto
2014 SE 1.6 135K miles

 

[PartyFiesta]

This was my next step. Removing the starter to get a view at the flex plate and look for cracks but the cam code just doesn’t go away even with new motor craft sensors. If it was really out of time it’s take a bit to start up, which it doesn’t.

 

[tabijan]

Are you getting P0016/17 indicating incorrect cam position or P0340/65 indicating faulty sensor or wiring? Im guessing P0340/65 if you replaced the sensors. Maybe the tone wheel or magnet came loose causing the noise and code.

P0016/17 can indicate a bad actuator. I don’t know whether there’s valve interference if one actuator goes out. I haven’t heard that a faulty actuator causes engine noise.

Sixto
2014 SE 1.6 hatchback 135K miles

 

[PartyFiesta]

I’ve concluded wiring because the code stays on that bank after swap since they’re the same part number.

 

[Handy Andy]

Hold it guys!

That is what your engine sounds like when the timing belt has jumped - those rattles or tinny sounding taps, are the valves in the valve train striking the pistons - there is just enough tapping on the valve clearance to piston head to hear this.

Your CAM code is the other clue - one cam jumped or has debris in the oil control valve or the drain side of it. but either way this is serious and can lead to bent valves soon enough.

Why? It can be heard as the system works on throttle action. The system is advancing the timing - but if the belt has jumped - the oil control ports are also advanced further than they should be to the push the valves open sooner or close later - causing what sounds like a rapid tink-tink-tink.

 

[PartyFiesta]

So I should I redo timing?

 

[Handy Andy]

At least pull that cover off the timing belt, remove the spark plugs and see if TDC of Cyl 1 (The one closest to the Crank pulley) can be made TDC, without any sort of friction you could hear as a tap or tonk when the piston arrives to TDC - another piston is also going there too - so all those plugs need to be removed so you can only deal with clearance and the aspect of the two cams - keep it simple for now. Although not as easy to see - you can note the symmetry of the cams when they are closed and you pull the crankshaft pulley bolt clockwise (forward) to observe the two cam chambers move and determine which arrives first to TDC.

• It would also be a good idea to scope the compression stroke of any cylinder at TDC to see if a set of valves remain stuck out - you'd see it in the scoping probe shot. It would also tell you the side affected, Intake or Exhaust and or advance, jumped or retard jumped (Closed vane but valve open).
• Right at this moment the oil pressure and the distance of throw that chamber has in advance - gives your motor a fighting chance to keep going without any cylinder head service - it runs - so fix the advance to clear the code and you might be ok.

The rattle tink sound I hear in the vid tells me advance timing issues, but in the older days, engines like the Chevy V8 didn't have this type of cam advance. Instead - it used a timing chain on a single cam with rods and lifters - and if it slipped, can cause interference. But you'd hear the rattle sounding like a type of over-advanced spark knock - but would occur at idle - which any mechanic would know is not right. What would save the motor is quick action and the lifters being pumped full of oil would "bleed down" from the valve striking against the rocker side of the lifter - which - by impact - used the oil as the "gap" that kept the valves from getting too mangled - and a tow to a service shop took care of the rest.

Left alone; the cams and their advance units will eventually fail and even their oil seal will fail - making an even bigger mess to clean up and force you to redo the cams entirely.

Right now, by sounds, the advance issue can be investigated but don't run the motor too long for this also affects the fuel trim.

 

[PartyFiesta]

Oh it’s been sitting for months already. The battery went bad even. I’ll get back to working on it end of august, I’m also working on a 6.0 powerstroke so I definitely have my hands full.

 

[tabijan]

@Handy Andy , wouldn’t cams out of phase throw P0016/17 codes?

Sixto
2014 SE 1.6 hatchback 135K miles

 

[Handy Andy]

It would only be a matter of time (sic) it would take a while for the system to recalculate the error because it thinks something more important might be going on as in a bad oil control solenoid. IT only sees one - not both - out of sync with the timing per the CKP located on the flywheel. It's when all three are off does it set the confused codes like the 16 and 17 which are simply more of a blanket and blatant explanation of what it thinks is going on (Covers Ford but also inclusive to more vehicles using VVT and oil control to accomplish it) - that hasn't happened yet because it's still able to rev and find idle - just the cams are not quite 100% aligned to the CKP - but one is - the other it thinks has a jammed or plugged or poor solenoid issue because it senses the change in the advance of both, just not both are equal.

So the time you get to repair this or at least check the cam advance - remove the plugs to release the compression - turn the crank pulley using a large long handle ratchet towards you or clockwise (front of the motor is on the right side (passenger in USA-vehicles) so the crank will rotate clockwise when you're facing it from that side) - and see if you feel resistance in any shape or form as pull the crank ( approach this from the top of the motor) towards you and ratchet back and pull again - see if you can feel any sort of interference - if not - then just reseat the cams back to TDC in agreement with CYL #1 and put the belt on and verify knowing that the chambers they have, are empty and fully closed and drained - then if you see issues in timing of them, suspect cams will need to get pulled off and runout checked - it (warped) may have already happened.