Ford Fiesta MK7 Starting Problem and CKP codes.

[Moataz]

Hello everyone, I have a problem with my car that I need help diagnosing, any suggestions are much appreciated.
2013 ford fiesta SE, MK7, Manual Transmission, 150k miles.

Problem Briefly:

• Starter cranks for one second and stops by it self (without turning back ignition key). It can do that forever, each time the same thing.
• I can jump the starter motor relay, it can fire up that way after many trials.
• The engine doesn't fire up using the key, and hardly using the relay bypass
• When engine starts.. it can run forever, very well, no weird sounds or knocking.. a little hesitation though.
• Persistent check engine crankshaft sensor codes.

When I bought this car (couple of months ago) it started fine, drove very well but it had knocking noises coming out of engine. I decided to swap the whole thing, got it a new engine from junk yard and here are some installation highlights.

• New engine has been working with automatic transmission and working perfectly (according to yard owners).
• I moved the flywheel from old to new engine with the extra thick disk where the clutch assembly sits.
• I put in a new clutch assembly (clutch disk / pressure plate / cover / slave cylinder).
• Every thing is put back where it should (wiring harness / hoses / manual shifter cables / clutch hydraulic line ...etc). To the best of my knowledge.

Now the moment of truth, each time I try to fire it up, starter motor cranks for about one second and disengages (As if the PCM shuts it off). Tried it for any number of times with same strength, same one second then shuts off without the engine firing up. (See the attached video).

Later on, I was able to locate the starter relay (Starter motor inhibitor as per the user manual), jumped closed it's switching circuit while the key on Ignition position, and the starter kept cranking as long as I'm connecting the wires.

When I did this for two or three times the car didn't start, I didn't expect it to. But one time it started. I took this as a success and left the engine running for 15 minutes or so and at this point I was able to assume the following:

• Regarding Engine and transmission Installation:
  • Engine is good as it sounds healthy, no knocking or weird sounds. Only the beautiful light valve clicking.
  • No oil leaks.
  • No high temp.
  • Transmission seems good as the wheels can spins fine on first gear.
• Regarding the Ignition Problem
  • Starter is good and well-ground.
  • Spark plugs, coil, and distributor are good.
  • Injectors, fuel pump are good, all receiving proper pulses.

After some research I found that these symptoms (no injector/spark pulse) can be caused by a faulty crank shaft position sensor (CPS) that confuses the PCM and inhibits ignition pulses. The new engine came with its CPS so I went ahead and swapped it with the CPS on the old engine (which used to fire up just fine). This didn't resolve the issue.
I did the same thing with camshaft position sensor, nothing.

OBD Diagnosis:

I got three error codes with descriptions out of OBD scanner :

• 3/3: P0336: Crankshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Range / Performance.
• 2/3: P0365: Camshaft Position Sensor B Circuit Bank
• 1/3: P0340: Camshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Bank 1 or Single Sensor.

I replaced the crankshaft position sensor twice, at first I used the one used to work with the old engine, then bought a new one. Both didn't work and threw same codes.
I did some CKP wiring check using multimeter and I could confirm that both CKP wires has zero resistance with their corresponding pins on PCM socket.
After many trials and with luck, the CKP ground wire (I assume) touched ground by mistake and the car started using the key.
After that I made a jump wire from ground to CKP ground wire (as I assumed it's not well ground / may be something wrong with pcm). Now the car starts with key after a quite elongated cranking time, idles very well. However, it feels like 20 horse power. It hesitates very much, lacking power, and can hardly go up to 60 MPH.

Now all OBD codes went away and were replaced with a new code that I believe is caused by the CKP ground wire I made:

1. 1/1: P0335: Crankshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Malfunction

Any suggestions where to go from here? Where to start? Do you think the engine came with a timing problem? or these codes only mean problems with sensors not the actual timing/positions?

Thank you.

 

[Handy Andy]

Wiring and or Crankshaft location of sensor.

IT's ok to let the engine crank then it shuts off, means it's awaiting input to figure out TDC. Or where the aspect is on the flywheel.

So if the Flywheel magnet (that proximity to the CKP sensor) clearance, correct? Then it's wiring - you'll receive a small trickle voltage to the connector so if it's getting voltage - you'll have to trace continuity to the PCM to see if the wires broken.

Else the PROXIMITY - as in clearance or location of Magnet to touch off CKP sender is not right.

 

[Moataz]

Wiring and or Crankshaft location of sensor.

IT's ok to let the engine crank then it shuts off, means it's awaiting input to figure out TDC. Or where the aspect is on the flywheel.

So if the Flywheel magnet (that proximity to the CKP sensor) clearance, correct? Then it's wiring - you'll receive a small trickle voltage to the connector so if it's getting voltage - you'll have to trace continuity to the PCM to see if the wires broken.

Else the PROXIMITY - as in clearance or location of Magnet to touch off CKP sender is not right.

Thank you very much Andy, never thought of proximity.
I noticed that the flywheel must be lightly rubbing against the CKP, the new ckp developed some scratches and little wear at the tip right away, as well as the one i tested before. I think that should be evidence for bad clearance?
I did measure resistance between each ckp socket pin and the corresponding PCM pin and I got almost zero resistance..
I'm also getting the following readings when measuring the two ckp wires using multimeter while ctanking for two-three seconds using starter relay:
1: Frequency : 700-1000 HZ
2: AC Voltage (melli) : 25 - 27 mV

When did a short crank (using ignition):
1: Frequency : 160 - 170 HZ
2: AC Voltage (melli) : 22 - 25 mV

I'm also getting 1.5 V at both CKP wires with ground (without cranking / on ignition position)

 

[Handy Andy]

Make sure you are using the former engines flywheel - or at least verify that the engines came from the SAME type of motor transmission combo.

Why?

Read here...
https://www.fordfiesta.org/threads/part-number-needed.8482/post-22158

There was a thread about the "insert" that the CKP sensor mounts to, that is different between Manual and Automatic.

A Manual flywheel versus the Automatic the location of the CKP magnet the sensor uses, is in a different location on the perimeter (edge).

And if the condition of the flywheel is warped - you may have damaged the sensor and you'll need to tear apart the system to verify the RIGHT flywheel is installed and not warped and install a new sensor once the condition is cleared and safe to proceed.

 

[Moataz]

Make sure you are using the former engines flywheel - or at least verify that the engines came from the SAME type of motor transmission combo.

Why?

Read here...
https://www.fordfiesta.org/threads/part-number-needed.8482/post-22158

There was a thread about the "insert" that the CKP sensor mounts to, that is different between Manual and Automatic.

A Manual flywheel versus the Automatic the location of the CKP magnet the sensor uses, is in a different location on the perimeter (edge).

And if the condition of the flywheel is warped - you may have damaged the sensor and you'll need to tear apart the system to verify the RIGHT flywheel is installed and not warped and install a new sensor once the condition is cleared and safe to proceed.

As a matter of fact the engine used to work with A/T before, and I installed it with M/T. So yes, I think that makes a lot of sense now. I did move the flywheel from the older engine to the new one. It was working just fine with the old engine and I believe I was super careful moving it.
According to the post you referred to, I suppose I need to install a M/T CKP mount?.
Thank you.

 

[Handy Andy]

Has to follow, in order to match the right distance to line up and know where TDC is.

Once the old flywheel (or current one is out) take a moment to locate the "magnet" on both flywheels - you'll see a difference - it's small but by your readings from earlier - there is not enough to change the "State" of the detector sensor to tell the system where TDC is. - it's a window that it looks for and fine tunes it as the PCM then check CAM to CKP and goes from there.

 

[Handy Andy]

But, if you RAN an AT before then the flywheel needs to be the same - unless you're converting it to MT then the PCM from the MT and as much of the other vehicles electronics have to convert over - else a re-write of the VIN is needed so the PCM can learn.

There will be issues.

The PCM is written with a known profile - if you decide to change the transmission - then that profile won't work, you'll have to use the one you're changing over to - for it to work.

 

[Moataz]

The car is M/T, I'm just swapping the engine as the former did severe knocking noises. The new engine I got for it was installed with A/T car, so I think my PCM and electronics are fine as I did not change transmission.
Will look closely at flywheel alignment with CKP when I open the transmission, will let you know

Thanks

 

[Handy Andy]

Ok, good, sorry to hear you did not keep the flywheel from the previous motor - but wishing you the best.

Can you get the old motor back for a moment to swap a part?

Would somehow like you to document this so we can provide better information for others - like that in a similar thread, need.

​

There is a video - but does not show the clip to hold the sensor to the harness that is necessary to work.

Not sure if you realize, the housing the motor (engine side) is, has the CKP sensor.

• - if that was from an AT - then it means it has the AT insert
• - that insert has to be changed to MT for the CKP to send the signal - when you change transmission - you only change the bell housing for clutch and transmission side - the other - engine side- is the one that you'll need to look for and check - for - and swap that insert - if you kept the MT.
• The Engine side has that CKP sensor and the AT or MT issue
  • Automatic transmission and that CKP sensor are different spacing from MT
• MT comes with the flywheel - that it would have a flywheel and the magnet location correct so you're good there- and the sensor would be correct for it,
  • but the LOCATION of the sensor is not correct, because of the engines housing insert, and you'll have to find the right insert or use the old insert from the former motor to make this work.

 

[Moataz]

Ok, good, sorry to hear you did not keep the flywheel from the previous motor - but wishing you the best.

Can you get the old motor back for a moment to swap a part?

Would somehow like you to document this so we can provide better information for others - like that in a similar thread, need.

View attachment 6901​

There is a video - but does not show the clip to hold the sensor to the harness that is necessary to work.

Not sure if you realize, the housing the motor (engine side) is, has the CKP sensor.

• - if that was from an AT - then it means it has the AT insert
• - that insert has to be changed to MT for the CKP to send the signal - when you change transmission - you only change the bell housing for clutch and transmission side - the other - engine side- is the one that you'll need to look for and check - for - and swap that insert - if you kept the MT.
• The Engine side has that CKP sensor and the AT or MT issue
  • Automatic transmission and that CKP sensor are different spacing from MT
• MT comes with the flywheel - that it would have a flywheel and the magnet location correct so you're good there- and the sensor would be correct for it,
  • but the LOCATION of the sensor is not correct, because of the engines housing insert, and you'll have to find the right insert or use the old insert from the former motor to make this work.

Hi Andy, Couldn't have done it without your help, problem solved by replacing the CKP insert (mount) on the engine side.
I did realize how things work when took a closer look at flywheels and CKP inserts/mounts, here's a summary for the problem / solution.

1. I had a Manual Transmission (M/T) engine that had loud knocking noises, I swapped it with another engine, which was installed with Automatic Transmission (A/T) (Assuming that both engines are exactly the same).
2. I couldn't get the car to start due to CKP error codes (Circuit range / performance).
3. I finally, with Andy's help, could figure out that the CKP mounts/inserts and flywheels on both engines are designed differently on A/T and M/T.
   1. The flywheels have a track of windows on a specific diameter to synthesize the CKP signal when passing over it. These windows are at different diameter and have different size on A/T and M/T, (see image below)

Accordingly, the CKP inserts/mounts at the engine body have different designs for both A/T and M/T engines. That guarantees CKPs are pointing correctly at the flywheel, see image below, not the wear and scratches on the CKP.

• Unfortunately, I had installed the old flywheel (M/T flywheel) on the new engine (with Automatic CKP insert/Mount), that made the CKP pointing incorrectly at the inner edge of the windows track on the flywheel because of the different insert/flywheel design. Consequently, the CKP generated wrong signal and I found it with wear on its tip.
• Fortunately I had the old engine around and I spent the time re-opening the transmission and replacing the CKP Automatic Mount with the manual mount from the former engine, At this point, with visual inspection, both flywheel and ckp mount agree together.
• I assembled everything again, car started fine, no codes.

 

[Handy Andy]

You are AWESOME!

Someone's gotta' pin this somewhere...

What you've done! This deserves some kind of award.

By what you've have accomplished; now you've been able to show others how to swap motors and be able to continue the process - it may seem tedious and time consuming for just one motor. You have to know that many others out there are having similar issues with keeping their vehicles running and on the road. You've shown others what is needed to finish this process.

Kudos!

​

As a sidebar to this, any reader wanting to learn something about Reluctor and timing functions - go back up to the post and note the "gap" where there is a lack of a tooth (for lack of a better word). Since the system is static where aspects are when the engine rotates, you can then think of this as the turning of the crank then seems as if it's a rotor - the sensor is fastened to a fixed position and the signal it generates is interrupted by the passing of the metal vanes. So, the system looks to the CKP and eventually CAM to find specific trains of signal in which to know where TDC is, and how to fire the plugs in the correct order, as well as how far (and how fast) the cam timing advance the oil solenoids provide for any given range of speed.

This principle also applies to speed sensors and ABS systems.

Fantastic!

 

[Moataz]

Thank you very much, It took me forever trying to find a solution. Happy this could help others.