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P0340 P0016

joshb

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#1
2011 Fiesta SES showing P0340 and P016 with a slight hesitation when starting plus some loss of power at higher RPM of when going up hill. The serpentine belt started to rip along the belt on the highway. Drove to ford and got a new belt installed but a few days later engine light came on after starting the car and these two codes are on. Got a new camshaft sensor but still same codes.

Any ideas?
 

scotman

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#2
P0016 is a correlation code. It means that the camshaft sensor signal doesn't agree with the crankshaft position signal.
It doesn't mean that you need to replace the camshaft sensor. It means that sensor experienced a signal interruption. You need to check the connections and harness from the bank 1 CPS and the ground connection too. I hate repeating like a scratched record, but all of the sensors rely on a stable, clean power supply and ground connections. It's not just a good thing. It's imperative.
If you can clean the ground connections, make sure that you coat the contact areas with some kind of grease or even just petroleum jelly, like Vaseline! That will slow down the corrosion on the connection.
I can post a picture of the area if you are uncertain about where to start looking.
 
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joshb

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Thread Starter #3
P0016 is a correlation code. It means that the camshaft sensor signal doesn't agree with the crankshaft position signal.
It doesn't mean that you need to replace the camshaft sensor. It means that sensor experienced a signal interruption. You need to check the connections and harness from the bank 1 CPS and the ground connection too. I hate repeating like a scratched record, but all of the sensors rely on a stable, clean power supply and ground connections. It's not just a good thing. It's imperative.
If you can clean the ground connections, make sure that you coat the contact areas with some kind of grease or even just petroleum jelly, like Vaseline! That will slow down the corrosion on the connection.
I can post a picture of the area if you are uncertain about where to start looking.
Thanks for the reply. I would really appreciate some pictures. I did clean and check the contact at the cam sensors and didn't see anything.

I noticed yesterday when I was idle the p0016 goes away and only the 0340 stays but when I start driving the 0016 comes back.

Thanks!
 

scotman

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#4
It's easier to remove the Battery to get access to the ground connections. It's not a bad idea to be prepared to give the battery terminals a good cleaning and condition inspection as well.
The original 500cca battery is being worked to it's limit from the minute it's dropped into the tray. IMG_20200901_075429.jpg
 
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joshb

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Thread Starter #5
It's easier to remove the Battery to get access to the ground connections. It's not a bad idea to be prepared to give the battery terminals a good cleaning and condition inspection as well.
The original 500cca battery is being worked to it's limit from the minute it's dropped into the tray. View attachment 4076
Thanks for sending this. I went ahead and cleaned the two connections and also the negative cable from the battery. I made sure there's no rust or paint under. Still the same 🙁
 

scotman

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#6
Thanks for sending this. I went ahead and cleaned the two connections and also the negative cable from the battery. I made sure there's no rust or paint under. Still the same 🙁
You should go to a place that has a scan tool that is capable of viewing the live stream pid files. This will help you narrow down the root cause of the intermittent mil.
 
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joshb

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Thread Starter #7
You should go to a place that has a scan tool that is capable of viewing the live stream pid files. This will help you narrow down the root cause of the intermittent mil.
Can I do it with my tool? I have the ELM327 and phone app.
 

Handy Andy

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#8
Hmmm...

P0016 is a timing issue, where the Crank and Cam position sensors are off by several "ticks" or degrees, their timing window between both is too long or incorrect.

P0340 is also an issue with "Drivetrain" but it looks to the position sensors above, for setting the proper downshift/upshift modes.

This may indicate a timing belt may have "jumped" a few cogs and may fail and now is in jeopardy of leaving you stranded when it finally quits.

You said the regular belt "shredded" or tore itself up pretty good and since it's been replaced...

I have a concern about that shop not following thru to protect themselves...

The serpentine belt routes from crank, to water pump, to alternator to A/C - if any of these bearings are beginning to fail - that can tear up the belt...

How is your water cooling system? Listen to it - any extra noises or squeals? A precaution - you have have a water pump going out, on top of this jumped crankshaft to Camshaft belt issue - the two may be interconnected. As in the Bearing of the Water pump may have excessive slack, causing the casing (it's cast seat) to start a wear point and the shaft going into the motor block gets' elongated - making the shaft move side to side and in and out - getting a little too close to the internal impeller that moves the coolant thru the engine. - if the impeller ever struck while in high RPM, the impeller can loose a tooth or two and at the same time "stop" or torque the belt from moving - making a "hot spot" for the belt - on top of this the age of the internal belt can also develop this slack and the inertial moment this happened, the cylinder head "jumped time" - there are two Solenoids and a sensor on the cylinder head that use the camshaft to see where the advance timing can occur to help develop power - this is what goes to the first part of this message, if the engine jumped it's timing reference, it is only a matter of time before the belt inside will fail and possibly damage the motor in the process.
 
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joshb

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Thread Starter #9
Hmmm...

P0016 is a timing issue, where the Crank and Cam position sensors are off by several "ticks" or degrees, their timing window between both is too long or incorrect.

P0340 is also an issue with "Drivetrain" but it looks to the position sensors above, for setting the proper downshift/upshift modes.

This may indicate a timing belt may have "jumped" a few cogs and may fail and now is in jeopardy of leaving you stranded when it finally quits.

You said the regular belt "shredded" or tore itself up pretty good and since it's been replaced...

I have a concern about that shop not following thru to protect themselves...

The serpentine belt routes from crank, to water pump, to alternator to A/C - if any of these bearings are beginning to fail - that can tear up the belt...

How is your water cooling system? Listen to it - any extra noises or squeals? A precaution - you have have a water pump going out, on top of this jumped crankshaft to Camshaft belt issue - the two may be interconnected. As in the Bearing of the Water pump may have excessive slack, causing the casing (it's cast seat) to start a wear point and the shaft going into the motor block gets' elongated - making the shaft move side to side and in and out - getting a little too close to the internal impeller that moves the coolant thru the engine. - if the impeller ever struck while in high RPM, the impeller can loose a tooth or two and at the same time "stop" or torque the belt from moving - making a "hot spot" for the belt - on top of this the age of the internal belt can also develop this slack and the inertial moment this happened, the cylinder head "jumped time" - there are two Solenoids and a sensor on the cylinder head that use the camshaft to see where the advance timing can occur to help develop power - this is what goes to the first part of this message, if the engine jumped it's timing reference, it is only a matter of time before the belt inside will fail and possibly damage the motor in the process.
The belt was done at the local Ford dealer and the car was fine when I left. The belt was never replaced before to my knowledge and the car has 160000 KM on it. The belt never ripped completely, only 1/2 of the outside part along the belt was lost so the car never heated up.
I don't hear any unusual noises from the cooling system so I wonder if it's the timing belt. Is there a way for me to check it without the ford special tools?
 

scotman

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#10
That's pretty strange, the drive belt tearing, I've not seen that before.
I did the timing belt, tensioner and bolt and water pump on my blue 2011 last fall.
I should have taken a few pics of the original belt condition. I have a pic of a new Ford timing belt for a Fiesta. As well as the water pump. The pump fails much more often than the timing belt. The O.E. timing belt is very robustly designed. It has a high density plastic material impregnated into the cog face. This material has to be gone through before the cog material can be chewed up. IMG_20200903_065038.jpg

The water pump does have a plastic impeller, but it is also quite beefy. The seal and bearing are the weak point of this piece.


I don't know what features the ELM327 tool you have includes. But, I would think that the dealership technician would have reported any unusual wear indications such as pulleys with lots of looseness, when you got the stretchy drive belt replaced. You might want your dealership service department to check it out. They can connect it to their SBDS and do a deep dive into the MIL codes. Please keep us updated!
 

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Handy Andy

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#11
Oh!

Thank you!

Considering the age of 2011 - 8 + years (and counting) ... that's a long time of service life to ask for any belt. o_O

The Water Pump is behind that Timing Belt pulley cover, but it's shaft protrudes out to a pulley and is driven by that serpentine belt.

Without having to tear down the entire side of an engine to inspect, you might have some luck in removing the cover plate on the side of the motor where the pulleys are - there's a case cover to inspect the belts and also see the timing marks and for it's alignment.

The plastic cover uses a gasket and has several places to unbolt the cover from the cast.

1599140494934.png
Disclaimer:
You do not have to take apart things...
You should be aware of what any service shop may have to perform
in order to diagnose and
service your vehicle...
For Informational Purposes Only!

Now this may seem odd but there is a type of variable timing feature the belts are able to use in relation to the timing marks, It uses those solenoid's to allow the camshafts some leeway to adjust their valves on when they open and close - which gives the motor a little more power under special conditions.

The problem is, it's supposed to reset to Top - Dead Center like nothing went wrong, under normal conditions.

If that didn't happen, the ECM could be seeing timing reference problems affecting it's emissions and drivetrain and since the ECM didn't get a "program" for a diagnostic for this, (2011) you may see several codes crop up due to the nature of the condition.

They may have revised the coding and test procedure for this in later model years, but this condition exists in any vehicle with some sort of valve timing - so the offset timing error can occur but the ECM may not see it this way.
 

scotman

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#12
I would think (hope?) That if a cam phaser was failing, even intermittently, that a mil would be set for the condition. You should also have a driveability issue if a phaser is not playing nice.
 
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joshb

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Thread Starter #13
Someone told me that even if it was the cam sensor and I replaced and cleared the code, I still need to reset the ECM or drive in a certain way for 10 minutes to actually let the computer see that the code was fixed?

He suggested a reset of the computer by removing the negative cable off the battery and use a jumper wire from the positive to clear the memory.. any thoughts?
I will try to remove the timing upper cover and check the belt condition and try to see the timing
 

scotman

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#14
I'm not familiar with that one as far as the Fiesta is concerned. I wouldn't be connecting any jumper wires. Your scan tool is the safest way to clear the codes. You will have to do a trip drive cycle or connect your ELM327 scan tool, if it has I/M readyness capability to confirm that the mil and issue is resolved or not.
 
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joshb

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Thread Starter #15
I downloaded another app for the ELM and while driving it only shows one DTC rather than the two. The coolant temperature reached 104c once and the fan clicked in so temp was down to below 95c very quickly so I don't think there's a problem with the water pump.
The engine seems smooth in idle and "knocks" something while accelerating.
 

Handy Andy

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#16
It good to know that the coolant id circulating - that's a relief.

That Knock? That may be the Advance / Retard issue causing the the ORIGINAL trouble code. your P0016 would then be "true" as your cam shafts are "off" to each other. (The "jumped time" reference) Where one vale train is operating at a different trimming "trim" it is not set up for.- the engines PCM can't compensate fully for this discrepancy.

Open the hood, facing the Motor, your Timing cover is (in US vehicles) on YOUR LEFT (Passenger side) while the back or reward side of the motor is on YOUR RIGHT by the PCM and Battery - the Transmission and Transaxle are under the battery and it's tray. (I'm writing this way, as a LEGACY approach - this is for you and anyone else that may read this thread later can know the aspect)

The top of the motor has two solenoids one on each valve cover right by the timing belt. and there are two sensors on the rearward side of the motor - the side that goes towards the transmission - these two rearward ones are the timing - the front ones (Timing belt side) open and close as specific times to change the way the vales in each side operate.

This happens is a fashion so that the timing gear and belt do not change, the CAMSHAFT it's connected to, does - by allowing oil in and out of a chamber that allows the camshaft to rotate as a method of advance or retard it's opening and closing of the valves - changing how the fuel air and exhaust valves are in relation to the piston of their respective cylinder.

There is a video about this process on Youtube... it's over 16 minutes of rather dry tech material for some viewers but I find it a useful diagnostic and understanding of how this system works

This is supposed to happen so you notice the extra power being applied, and the solenoids - once the job is done, release the oil back into the valve train cover to be returned to the oil pan. IF the solenoids become stuck, they may refuse to open, or stay closed or worse stay open unable to close (binding) and the two camshafts are off proper timing all the time, as long the oil pressure is high enough to push one of the camshafts ahead of the other - setting the P0016 code as a default. This can cause a "drift" in power problem too - low oil pressure with lower engine RPM, the advance is not as great so the error in timing wouldn't be so bad as you would have with higher RPM - so if your motor seem to work better at higher RPM than usual, another symptom to the ROOT cause.

That is the TIMING aspect. But if the Belt jumped a few teeth, then when the solenoids release the oil, the normal timing aspect does not return and the oil released just gets circulated back into the system - everything is as usual - except for the SENSORS now "see" something has changed. The video shows the process and as you can see the "gear" or toothed pulley is not affected, but is part of the process if the timing as they turn thru their cycling - where the solenoids add or take away oil the pulley and camshaft can be put into a position of tension at a specific time of where the valves and their inertial moment - and the pulleys own momentum can do something unexpected.

IF the engine thinks it's at the right timing reference - it fires the sparkplug that goes to the proper cylinder - if everything goes well - power is produced..

IF that timing is off, the cylinders' sparkplug may fire too soon, causing predetonation - and the knock you hear - like it's a noisy valve train or low oil pressure. It can also set another code of excessive spark knock - or a timing problem related to poor fuel causing the knock, and try to trim fuel and perhaps the timing which then affects the drivetrain and its' ability to produce power . The engine would operate sluggishly - of if it jumped time - one moment it's advanced, but the knock and timing references say another and sets another code.

There is also the concern of the age of the motor and its ability to keep the oil pressurized and provide enough volume to even be applied to advance the timing. A wear indication, because of the oil pumps' capacity and ability to keep enough pressure in the system to afford the ability to advance - if one (or both) solenoid opens and the pressure drops, this can set this code too - because the expected advance timing never occurred or was not sustained along enough to complete the cycle. This can happen in older, high-mileage vehicles that have motors nearing the end or their service life and require an overhaul

So to me, if you don't mind - I may need to refer to this post of mine someday. As a reminder for myself. I have owned other vehicles that utilized similar technology that if you do a search for my posts elsewhere here in these forums, you'll see in one particular vehicle they even had a separate filter screen installed to keep the solenoid from premature failure - so the effort of regular scheduled maintenance plays a key, pivotal role in this.

The reason why I know so much about this was I too had to upgrade to another vehicle - the one I had use similar technology, but it had a lot of miles under it's wheels. So as a matter of useful life, and of safety, it was necessary to upgrade.
 
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joshb

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Thread Starter #17
It good to know that the coolant id circulating - that's a relief.

That Knock? That may be the Advance / Retard issue causing the the ORIGINAL trouble code. your P0016 would then be "true" as your cam shafts are "off" to each other. (The "jumped time" reference) Where one vale train is operating at a different trimming "trim" it is not set up for.- the engines PCM can't compensate fully for this discrepancy.

Open the hood, facing the Motor, your Timing cover is (in US vehicles) on YOUR LEFT (Passenger side) while the back or reward side of the motor is on YOUR RIGHT by the PCM and Battery - the Transmission and Transaxle are under the battery and it's tray. (I'm writing this way, as a LEGACY approach - this is for you and anyone else that may read this thread later can know the aspect)

The top of the motor has two solenoids one on each valve cover right by the timing belt. and there are two sensors on the rearward side of the motor - the side that goes towards the transmission - these two rearward ones are the timing - the front ones (Timing belt side) open and close as specific times to change the way the vales in each side operate.

This happens is a fashion so that the timing gear and belt do not change, the CAMSHAFT it's connected to, does - by allowing oil in and out of a chamber that allows the camshaft to rotate as a method of advance or retard it's opening and closing of the valves - changing how the fuel air and exhaust valves are in relation to the piston of their respective cylinder.

There is a video about this process on Youtube... it's over 16 minutes of rather dry tech material for some viewers but I find it a useful diagnostic and understanding of how this system works

This is supposed to happen so you notice the extra power being applied, and the solenoids - once the job is done, release the oil back into the valve train cover to be returned to the oil pan. IF the solenoids become stuck, they may refuse to open, or stay closed or worse stay open unable to close (binding) and the two camshafts are off proper timing all the time, as long the oil pressure is high enough to push one of the camshafts ahead of the other - setting the P0016 code as a default. This can cause a "drift" in power problem too - low oil pressure with lower engine RPM, the advance is not as great so the error in timing wouldn't be so bad as you would have with higher RPM - so if your motor seem to work better at higher RPM than usual, another symptom to the ROOT cause.

That is the TIMING aspect. But if the Belt jumped a few teeth, then when the solenoids release the oil, the normal timing aspect does not return and the oil released just gets circulated back into the system - everything is as usual - except for the SENSORS now "see" something has changed. The video shows the process and as you can see the "gear" or toothed pulley is not affected, but is part of the process if the timing as they turn thru their cycling - where the solenoids add or take away oil the pulley and camshaft can be put into a position of tension at a specific time of where the valves and their inertial moment - and the pulleys own momentum can do something unexpected.

IF the engine thinks it's at the right timing reference - it fires the sparkplug that goes to the proper cylinder - if everything goes well - power is produced..

IF that timing is off, the cylinders' sparkplug may fire too soon, causing predetonation - and the knock you hear - like it's a noisy valve train or low oil pressure. It can also set another code of excessive spark knock - or a timing problem related to poor fuel causing the knock, and try to trim fuel and perhaps the timing which then affects the drivetrain and its' ability to produce power . The engine would operate sluggishly - of if it jumped time - one moment it's advanced, but the knock and timing references say another and sets another code.

There is also the concern of the age of the motor and its ability to keep the oil pressurized and provide enough volume to even be applied to advance the timing. A wear indication, because of the oil pumps' capacity and ability to keep enough pressure in the system to afford the ability to advance - if one (or both) solenoid opens and the pressure drops, this can set this code too - because the expected advance timing never occurred or was not sustained along enough to complete the cycle. This can happen in older, high-mileage vehicles that have motors nearing the end or their service life and require an overhaul

So to me, if you don't mind - I may need to refer to this post of mine someday. As a reminder for myself. I have owned other vehicles that utilized similar technology that if you do a search for my posts elsewhere here in these forums, you'll see in one particular vehicle they even had a separate filter screen installed to keep the solenoid from premature failure - so the effort of regular scheduled maintenance plays a key, pivotal role in this.

The reason why I know so much about this was I too had to upgrade to another vehicle - the one I had use similar technology, but it had a lot of miles under it's wheels. So as a matter of useful life, and of safety, it was necessary to upgrade.
Thanks for the detailed write-up! I'm suspecting a timing issue rather than the actual sensor. The car died on me today while driving and I had to tow it to Ford. I did remove the timing belt cover to make sure the belt is still there and it was but I couldn't tell if it jumped a tooth.
I guess I will know soon what is wrong with it and a few hundred dollars off...
 


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