2 awesome little hot hatches we won't get in the USA

[econoboxrocks]

 

[scotman]

I don't feel that we got shortchanged because we didn't get the mk8 FiST.
The north American version Fiesta ST is very nice. It has several very serious issues/limitations that could easily cause big financial crisis if it's owner takes it to a race track for some fun without doing several steps of preparation beforehand. Overall, for daily use, it's great. But it is not a low maintenance car.
The Yaris GR is an homologation special, built in very limited numbers.
We cannot purchase one in America. But neither can many people in Britain.
These are the best times to get a hot hatch. Prices on used FiST are very reasonable. SUV and trucks are the in demand vehicles today. Compact fwd performance cars are a niche within a niche of a rapidly vanishing segment of the automotive market.

 

[econoboxrocks]

Yeah, cars are going the way of the dodo in the US.
However, if you want a fast Fiesta, the ST is the way to go. The engine and transmission are solid. In Europe, they used it in cars as big as the Fusion, and lots of small vans (That's not a thing, here). Here, it was the go-to engine for the Escape. The 1.6 in the FiST is the most powerful of any 1.6 they used, since it was a hot hatch with some stiff competition, not a fleet car or CUV. The drivetrain is strong and under-stressed in such a light car.
There are plenty of FiSTers on the ST board with over 100k on their cars, and they're still going strong, even modded ones.
Most of the issues with the Fiesta had to do with the DCT. That sort of ruined its reputation as a reliable car, but any Fiesta with a manual transmission is usually reliable. They just go and go.

 

[manbearpig]

100k miles is not a lot... get back to me when you hit 300k.

I almost guarantee that on average, the standard Fiesta engine/drivetrain will outlast the ST engine/drivetrain.

What's most sad is that people think the Fiesta is "such a light car". It's quite a bit heavier than its Mazda2 cousin, and most cars in its class. It does a good job a feeling light on its feet, though.

A mk1 Fiesta is what I'd call light, pretty sure they were about 1600lbs, lol.

 

[Wunmanband]

Especially with preventative maintenance

 

[econoboxrocks]

One ST guy has 280,000 on his. That's with a big turbo, too.

 

[scotman]

100k miles is not a lot... get back to me when you hit 300k.

I almost guarantee that on average, the standard Fiesta engine/drivetrain will outlast the ST engine/drivetrain.

What's most sad is that people think the Fiesta is "such a light car". It's quite a bit heavier than its Mazda2 cousin, and most cars in its class. It does a good job a feeling light on its feet, though.

A mk1 Fiesta is what I'd call light, pretty sure they were about 1600lbs, lol.

That's my assessment too. The 1. 6 turbo engine is very heavily stressed. The coolant temps can go from normal to damn near in flames in the blink of an eye. I think the new euro FiST is most likely even more sketchy, durability wise.

 

[econoboxrocks]

That's my assessment too. The 1. 6 turbo engine is very heavily stressed. The coolant temps can go from normal to damn near in flames in the blink of an eye. I think the new euro FiST is most likely even more sketchy, durability wise.

I've had no issues. The engine is very beefy, actually. It's built with forged rods and a cast iron crank to handle the turbo. On stock internals, you can tune it up to 350-400 hp or so before you need stronger pieces. It's under stressed, if anything. For racing, or if you live in Tucson, you need a better radiator. Mountune sells a really good one. I've never seen the temp go above 4 bars even on hot days, so I won't bother.
https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-engines/ford-ecoboost-family/ford-1-6l-ecoboost-engine/#:~:text=The Ford 1.6L EcoBoost,more commonly known as CUVs.&text=It has been part of,of turbocharged engines since 2014.
They put this engine in way bigger vehicles than the Fiesta, and they're reliable in those cars, too.

The only issue they've had was in some of the early '14 models. The heads would warp because there was a flaw with the water jacket on one cylinder. They redesigned it, and later models are fine. If you look at a '14, check to see if it was recalled, and if it was, keep shopping. They didn't fix it. They just put in a warning light for low coolant, since one of your cylinders is burning it. Still, even those cars are still going.

I plan to keep this car until I die or am too old and sickly to drive, whichever comes first. It's that fun.

 

[manbearpig]

You're not going to convince me that a turbo motor with an aggressive tune and high compression ratio is going to last as long as the NA version with a pedestrian tune, beefier parts or not.

High performance engines have to sacrifice something, and that's usually longevity. Consider it a racing engine, they only use those for a season at most.

 

[econoboxrocks]

Semis go hundreds of thousands of miles with original turbos. The key to driving anything for a long time is keeping it clean, and not beating on it, especially when it's cold.
Ford tells me I can go 10,000 miles before I need an oil change.
Poppycock. New engines need frequent oil changes to break in properly, but most people ignore the simple physics of that. It's expensive, and the factory tells you it's not needed.
It isn't, if you don't plan to keep the car for 300,000 miles or more.

I bought this new, because I didn't want anyone else to break it in. It's not a race car, it's my daily. I think 240hp/280tq is the sweet spot with a stock turbo, so I'm done tuning.
The engine and drivetrain are more than up to the job. It's the rest of the car I worry about.

 

[manbearpig]

You're comparing apples to oranges. If Ford thought 240/280 were sustainable numbers, they would have offered it way from the factory. What "you think is the sweet spot" is the real poppyock in this conversation.

I hope you do get 300k out of it. Just don't be surprised if you don't.

 

[econoboxrocks]

I would be. Solid, overbuilt, and well maintained. The engine and drivetrain are the most durable parts of the car. Have you driven an ST?

 

[econoboxrocks]

And no, Ford would never give the ST that much power off the floor. They'd have to give the Focus ST 300hp to compensate, and the RS 400hp. That would beat the Mustang. Hard no.
They can be safely tuned to those numbers, but they're sold to the public.
The turbos are the strongest engines in the platform. They are built to handle more power than stock, and they last.

 

[scotman]

When i saw all the issues that dogged buyers of the Focus RS, i was not surprised to see their discussion forums go totally silent regarding anyone modifying those engines. All the enthusiasm evaporated once the head gaskets failed (incorrect part installed at assembly)

And no, Ford would never give the ST that much power off the floor. They'd have to give the Focus ST 300hp to compensate, and the RS 400hp. That would beat the Mustang. Hard no.
They can be safely tuned to those numbers, but they're sold to the public.
The turbos are the strongest engines in the platform. They are built to handle more power than stock, and they last.

Ford has stated that the peak H.P. number they assigned to the Fiesta ST is the momentary overboost figure. So, in stock, real world, even fairly aggressive "normal use" we don't use or feel that exact number. Im ok with that.
I must assume that H.P. calc' method holds true for the Focus ST and RS.
The Focus ST has a history of valves getting coke accumulation that cause misfire or failure to run.
The Focus RS has been a heartbreaking nightmare of unreliability. First issue being the incorrect head gasket on some the second being the gear oil leakage from either the transaxle or transfer case. Both of those issues caused the unfortunate buyers to lose the use of the cars, that in most cases ,they paid well above list price for.
In the case of the RS it caused a chilling effect on owners doing any mechanical modifications.
Their forums are mostly silent. Two guys that work in the same complex as myself, took delivery of their RS's, a blue one and a black one. Both head gaskets failed within a month. The blue car began leaking fluid right after it returned from getting the head gasket.
After a long period of time, both guys used the lemon law to walk away from them.
I don't feel good about relating that story. I wouldn't want to have it happen to me.

 

[manbearpig]

I guess I'm not sure what you're getting your evidence from. The 1.6L NA with iB5 is time tested and known for longevity, with proper maintenance of course.

I don't have to have driven an ST to know that more complex systems have more failure points than less complex systems. Don't let your "fanboyism" get in the way of facts.

 

[econoboxrocks]

Yeah, the RS got some head gaskets that were intended for the Mustang 2.3, which had different holes. One of the water jackets was completely cut off, blowing the heads. What should have been a great car was ruined. You pay $40,000 for one, you should be able to expect it to not blow up. I've heard of Focus STs having problems, but a lot of it seems to be owners not tuning it right. Most are still running fine.

Other than the 1st year glitch I mentioned earlier, the FiSTs don't seem to have those issues. They're not burning oil or having problems with intake valve crud. My evidence comes from the ST forum, where there just aren't a lot of issues with the car you don't see with the base model.

 

[scotman]

I believe that one of the guys paid well over 40g$. The guy who had the blue RS worked opposite my office he was also the one who had gearbox oil leaks start almost immediately after the head gasket was repaired. We became aquainted because he also had a Focus ST. He thought that the dealer had somehow maybe damaged the trans or something when fixing issue one.
He and I put it on my hoist. We pulled off the undertray to have a look at where it was leaking. I couldn't tell where it was leaking from exactly. But it was wet on the tray.
At that point we just buttoned it back up and i suggested that he call a flat bed. He wanted to drive it the five miles to the dealership and i said that might damage something that will take even longer to get parts for than the head gasket!
The other guy with the black RS was not as lucky. He had one gasket and then a whole engine. He was given an Escape to drive. He didn't talk much to either of us. He was a manager and not real talkative or mechanically inclined. But he did say that the experience made him appreciate the Audi quatro that he had owned ten years prior. So, not likely to be a blue oval fan.

 

[scotman]

My concerns with the FiST are related to the cooling system. In stock form it's rather under capacity. The temp gauge is heavily buffered. I had mine go into limp mode in traffic the first time. So i got a new fan relay. Then a month later it overheated in the queue for an autocross event. So i replaced the radiator with a revised part number O.E. part.
I am certain that it was on the verge of overheating on a couple of other times.
My big concern is cooking the rings and seeing oil consumption increase. So far, so good.
But my experience tells me that repeated overheating is just a funeral procession to the machine shop.

 

[econoboxrocks]

Most guys who race them put a better one in it. And a bigger intercooler.

 

[Handy Andy]

@scotman - How are you with the GDTi the ST uses?

Any issues?

The S/SE non-ST have simpler TBi - so how does the two compare in your words?