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Ford Fiesta Shutting off

Yowakawaka

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#1
Hi forum people,

I’ve been here twice before so wanted to come back again for advice. You guys know what you’re talking about.

I have a 2011 Ford Fiesta that keeps shutting off when at idle. I think it has something to do with the battery or alternator. I have to keep jumping it every morning but it will start after a good drive.

Am I able to do the old battery/alternator test by just starting it and disconnecting the battery? If it does then it’s the alternator and if it keeps running then it’s the battery.

I tested it with a multimeter and they both tested fine but the battery is from 2019 so maybe it’s just heading out.

Should I be checking something else?

Thanks for the advice in advance!
Chris
 

Handy Andy

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#2
It shouldn't just quit - so did the alternator die on you?

Why? Well, it may not have "Died" just no longer able to monitor the pull demands because the PCM can't talk to it - so it may mean a LIN Local Intra-Network fail which puts the Alternator and PCM at odds with each other and places it in a "supply up to this amount and keep float charge going" (Read LIMP MODE) but won't handle any big demand like EPAS or Climate control heating when it's cold on startup. Where; no matter what, it runs the rear defrost on a cold-start - so it can drain the battery pretty quickly due to it.

It is 2024 - so 5-years on a battery is pretty much ok to let it go. Remember - if the system used to keep it charged needs some TLC you won't know that until the terminals on the posts and the big one on the battery Positive - separate due to no metal left - as it means it corroded away - moment.
 
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Yowakawaka

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Thread Starter #3
Hey @Handy Andy, appreciate the help. I’ll be honest, I’m more of an older car guy so what you said about the alternator is hard to understand. If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying the alternator may not be charging effectively causing the car to go into limp mode? Keep in mind, I tested the alternator with a multimeter and it read a solid 14 so it’s charging.

The battery terminals are both good. I made sure to check that. I forget what the multimeter was reading when I tested it but it was showing good. For some reason tho it’s dead on almost every startup.

The motor only shuts off when I’m at a light or low rpm and it’s not all the time. I can usually restart it because it ran enough to charge the battery. Sometimes the rpm will rev up and down a bit too. It runs great on the highway or at a cruse.

I checked for vacuum leaks. I thought it might be coolant leaking into one of the cylinders so I topped it off and it hasn’t gone low. The battery dying is what makes me think it’s the alternator or battery.

How can I test them to make sure they aren’t bad?
 

Handy Andy

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#4
No, not a true "Limp Mode" like engine, but a weaker state of operation. It can't "boost" the power it would otherwise have available because the Alternator and the PCM aren't able to talk (this is like a symptom of "I can't hear you due to all that noise") - which may indicate another more subtle but far more serious and devastating condition of producing AC power mixing in with the DC level which can be very dangerous.

You mention you're an older car guy, yeah, that's me too - from the older days of rebuilding several Delco-Remy Alternators so I can keep my old 76' Pacer (amongst other rust buckets from friends and family) on the road - those days are gone.

Today's cars - the Alternator is no longer a "self-sufficient" charging system. It now uses the PCM to help develop an energy budget, so it uses a means to talk to the Alternator so it can produce the power at moments of need at greater rates than would be safe for the battery and or the system itself - for the surge could damage the parts connected within. That's why I mentioned the LIN system, it's like the older telephone systems - they supply DC power to the phone but can also send voice and data - we eventually worked it into making PC's talk to each other like modems did back in the 90's. The LIN system uses the DC power and Telecommunication transfer technology to listen for commands and even send data back onto the line for the PCM to interpret a condition and if properly programmed - make up a budget to handle the demands - Like EPAS and ABS / TRAC-control systems along with lighting and regulation of power to keep the system working and charging.

So when you say the car dies when it's at idle - seems more like a "Stall-condition" which may mean something else is causing this, it may not be from a poor charging system condition.

You may need to verify that the alternator is not causing this - which means several checks - some simpler ones are like listening to your AM radio in the vehicle and listen to the stations you can get - listen for the background noises as spark plugs make a popping noise and static from your fuel pump may be heard as short bursts - all while you rev the motor up and down. It should be pretty quiet even in-between stations and while listening to weaker ones - if you hear a high-pitched whine, that varies in pitch as you rev that motor, it my mean your alternator is weak - it may mean you'll have to replace it soon - as in it can also indicate a bearing in the Rotor shaft is getting ready to seize on the belt - leaving you stranded.

This is just the tip of a big Iceberg...
1733621817608.png

For you may have to check the output of the Alternator is it producing DC or maknig a lot of AC?

Regarding - knowing it has bearings, they can drag and pull power away from an idling engine - that will stall caused by the system can't make the rev-up to help the car move.

Also - make sure the AC compressor is not causing this condition if you have the Climate Control working Defrost or using any setting that has the Windshield symbol.

The Drag is what I'm talknig about - the physical loading down of the motor - can cause it to stall.

1733622257075.png

For engine loading can cause this same condition - so check your systems. It's also possible that the compressor in the AC system is dragging on the Serpentine belt and pulls down the idle to a point of stalling the engine - this can also be from the Alternators own pulley and bearings seizing - doing the same thing, trying to pull the idle down to stall the motor and you're trying to restart the motor. This may be a thermal condition of the bearing overheating when the engines warmed up - the starter has to fight this drag to even turn the motor over - that can kill the battery too.

1733706152941.png

If you remember previously in this post - the issue of rebuilding older Delco alternators - mostly due to the Diode Trio failed, the diodes are supposed to Rectify current produced as AC in the coils, to DC with a lot of pulses - like 3-phase AC converts to DC - you get a lot of sine waves converted to humps, only now on one side of the voltage rail - being now it has a DC pulse component and no longer AC.
  • Many of those electrical problems were caused by the diodes module failing - either by a shorted diode or a blown diode.
  • When the system could not charge the battery very well, you could hear the whine if the speakers at any given volume level - for the alternator was producing a ripple current mixing in as AC instead of a pulsed DC.
  • So what to do?
  • Use a DVM - a means to check for AC ripple is to use the AC side and see if a ripple voltage forms on the DC line at the post of the battery - and test at the Alternators' output post.
  • Since Alternators output are pulsed DC, it's smoothed by the Battery's own ability to act like a giant capacitor taking up and pushing out charge - so it can filter this ripple into a very low-level of noise.
  • However, - a resistive element can develop along the line - this is why I mention impedance - because of the AC component formed - affects how filtering and power losses occur as a voltage drop from the filtering needed - also affects the charging current present to even move power across that bad resistive junction or wire.
  • The Better the connections (Read lower resistance at high-current flow rates) the lower the ripple and noise factors due to it.
  • For you don't wind up starving the system as a result of a voltage drop occuring when high-current levels are demanded.
  • Ripples can be detected using AC or you can also find the culprit by measuring from one point of known good connection - to another connection point like the positive battery posts in DC - and you can see a voltage drop in DC due to the power the alternator is able to supply is not getting thru the tested junctions, but using the ohmmeter to send that power to the battery - because the meter bypasses those bad connections and flows into the battery which is at a lower potential - it needs charging. The LIN system tries to boost that power - but if it's too high - the PCM can set a code casued by the LIN system telling the other systems it's already at a higher level than it's designed for.
  • So you can find ripple in one place but due to the batteries own influence on this can fitler out much of the ripple as it shows up as a votlage drop from it. Resulting - as a reduced abiltiy to be shown as "I need some charging!" condition
    • Blown diodes cause poor charging and fading of the lights brightness amongst the lowered or less ability for the heater system to blow air - until you revved up the motor and you'd hear it return to set speed or see the headlights and dash brighten back to original settings - along with that Radio whine.
    • Shorted Diodes cause battery drain along with similar symptoms as told above, so the battery to "die" can mean several events up to and including the charging output post on the alternator is pulling current when the engine is off, so since it's connected to the battery all the time, the battery discharges into it - aside from the Age of the Battery being that the plates sulfated or the cells within it are causing shorts (reduced lead decreasing the resistance or the lowering an impedance appearance of a fully charged battery) forcing the alternator to push more power into the electrical - forcing itself into a potential shortened Mean Time Between Failures - and fail catastrophically.
    • In a fresh or fully connected system that has good connections - ripple doesn't appear as a factor of performance - It's when the wires corrode at the terminals or the places that are fed by it can't pull power due to the corrosion or resistive- impedance losses - effect - the ripple starts to become more prevalent and can become dangerous to the low-power systems. Those systems, even though they although are filtered and regulated - can still get knocked out by the spikes formed from charging loads, and their variances being unable to be accommodated for affecting the ability of the wires to even supply current from the alternator that. in itself - can't see those effects because it only knows or sees, a given resistance to the current it tries to push into the system to keep it charged as to a level it thinks it should be. E.G. - Alternator output at the output terminal may be 14.4V, but the Battery only sees 12.6V from it.
1733710801832.png

  • That the reason for the LIN - a type of monitoring the PCM can call out to. It's used to verify the integrity of the system - it's not foolproof. In using it in a simpler system like the Fiesta - in it's simpler form - can only help in those pinches as needed to operate heavy current demands. But, in other systems from FORD they programmed it to become a reminder so the Battery itself can be checked and "tested" by the system and notify you to check it. Some Titanium and Platinum models (upper trim lines) have this LIN as a Battery Minder System (or similar wording)

That's why I mentioned the rebuild, for your battery seems to hold a charge, but if parked - will drain. So if the battery is physically failing - that's one thing, but if the ELECTRICAL side of this is failing too, them both (Alternator and Battery) are at risk and can take out your cars more important modules.

So you may need to not only replace the Battery, but repair it's connection points to the main Battery Junction Block - that big RED capped set of terminals on the Positive battery post. And then verify the Alternator is working and is communicating. The Fiesta uses a LIN system, but it's functionality varies in the trim lines it's used in. So to replace the Alternator - it will require an exact re-fitment of the OEM part for the LIN to continue working.
 
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Yowakawaka

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Thread Starter #5
That’s interesting. The LIN system sounds great but it takes me back to why I like older cars. Simplicity! It has too many failure points. Very cool tho.

I had the battery tested and it’s bad, according to Advanced Auto. I’m getting one from Costco tomorrow. It’s an Interstate. This will be my first time using one so hopefully it holds up.

I was looking at alternators on RockAuto. You mentioned I need an OEM one so it communicates correctly with the ECM. I don’t understand why they would make so many different types if only one’s going to work. I have a SE, by the way. Anyway, how can I confirm the alternator is communicating with the ECM properly? That’s a different test from the radio test, correct?
 

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#6
Interstate brand batteries have the highest cold cranking amperage rating of any replacement battery I have found for our Fiesta’s. As our cars age and the electrical resistance increases in the system it’s a good idea to have as much capacity as possible in the battery.
 

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#7
That’s interesting. The LIN system sounds great but it takes me back to why I like older cars. Simplicity! It has too many failure points. Very cool tho.

I had the battery tested and it’s bad, according to Advanced Auto. I’m getting one from Costco tomorrow. It’s an Interstate. This will be my first time using one so hopefully it holds up.

I was looking at alternators on RockAuto. You mentioned I need an OEM one so it communicates correctly with the ECM. I don’t understand why they would make so many different types if only one’s going to work. I have a SE, by the way. Anyway, how can I confirm the alternator is communicating with the ECM properly? That’s a different test from the radio test, correct?
You may not be able to locate one in the Aftermarket directly - but maybe as a rebuilt unit.

The system, when it doesn't "hear" or able to see changes when it calls out to it, can set a series of DTC codes. The Check Engine light would come on and you'd see the DTC's starting with the Letter U - they'd be in your HEC display when you press that button to find DTC codes - they will start with the Letter U while other will start with B P or C related to the type of code support and parts related to it.
 
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Yowakawaka

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Thread Starter #8
I ended up getting the battery in and it’s working good so far. I’ll start it tomorrow morning and see what happens. If it doesn’t start then I’ll know it’s something else. Also, it is still stalling so it’s two separate issues.

@Handy Andy I have only messed with the display you’re mentioning once. Hopefully, I won’t have to dig too deep into it out of necessity. I’d much rather it be for fun.

I was doing some research on the stalling. It’s a pretty common problem. I saw a few videos on YouTube about it. Most people say it’s a dirty throttle body and/or MAF sensor. I’m gonna wake up early before work and try clean them. It that doesn’t stop the stalling then we need to find the next bridge to cross.
 
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Thread Starter #9
Got the throttle body and map sensor cleaned. So far so good. Hopefully I’m not speaking to soon.

@Handy Andy out of curiosity, would a Motorcraft alternator work or does it have to come from the dealership? I don’t think I need one but am curious
 

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#10
Motorcraft would work, that's Ford's brand and by sales, how they can even butter their bread - but it can set a Check Engine light due to the missing pieces of info the PCM will be asking it to send on charging status. If it doesn't get any answer thru the LIN it will turn on the MIL light. IT can then put the car in a type of limp mode where the PCM won't do all the stuff it once did - because the ability to offer it and control the power thru the LIN system, is not there.
 
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Thread Starter #11
@Handy Andy where’d you learn this? Where you a a mechanic or did you pick it up working on your own projects. I’m on the project side myself.

I was driving last night to get dog food and the rpm’s were jumping. Problems didn’t go away. I changed the water pump and timing belt a few months back. The fan also. It was stalling before the work. I was thinking maybe the timing but I just checked that when doing all the work. Changed the coil, plugs, and wires. Like I mentioned before, maybe coolant was getting into one of the cylinders? Nope, coolant levels fine. I thought it might be related to the battery issue I just fixed (it’s a fairly new issue). Nope.

What else do I look at? I don’t think this is mechanical.
 

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#12
I work as a delivery driver in the field of Automotive.

There have been times during my drop-off or pickups - overhearing conversations when I've been letting them know the part they ordered has arrived, where I have been stopped by various mechanics and being the person-on-the-spot (or stop) - then I become a muse for them - as a means for them to vent their frustrations and their successes Thru the events, I've received a lot of information - albeit in broken sentences at times of full emotion - where their efforts let me hear key words.

It's thru their involvement in the repair and the emotions they express, I then become the observer and sometimes the partaker in the celebration or the pause for more input and then look up this information later to help us solve these rather weird problems that are really due to a simple oversight of an underlying condition.

To me, when you have RPM rise and fall - this may mean connectors and power connections - but which ones?

It can also mean something with the Fuel rail as in starving - where air cavitation (failed Injector O-ring or vacuum line / nylon hose broken) or a kink in the line at the Fuel rail, or it's plumbing connector is not fully seated - causes the pressures seen at one point in the pressured line before that obstruction or failure - seem normal. So it can't think farther ahead than to think it's a mechanical problems but what and where?

IF you don't have any MIL light - does the HEC display have anything in the DTC section? That part of this self-test mode - about 9 - 12 presses deep into the HEC function follow thru - that may show up as pending during this? It may mean that you get in the car as you head to the store or your next destination and put it in HEC test mode when you drive and then just put it at the DTC code display where if you had no DTC's it says NONE. Drive, then when the issue starts - see what can show up on the display - but if it can clear it after this drive cycle - it will go back to NONE on the next start up.
 
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Thread Starter #13
The check engine lights on P0420, catalytic converter code. I feel like it could be the problem if it were clogged but I don’t think it is because MPG is fine. It gets 32-33 highway/street driving per tank. I calculate every tank.

I’ve tried to use a OBD2 reader to show me anything and it didn’t work. I was thinking the misfire would throw a code or show me something in the live data but it didn’t.

I’ll look up how to use the HEC mode but can you point me in somewhat of a direction please? I’ve never used it before.
 

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#14
These are the steps on how to do it, the button presses help you go onto the next test in this mode.

1734308621965.png

Some show your throttle while another will show Fuel level - they are mostly in hexadecimal - so if something is wrong the mechanic can use the result in the display to find the reason - else about 9 presses into this test - you'll find the DTC code storage it may have NONE onto several stored and you can scroll (press) thru them - then the test will continue onto the next section - you can roll it back over to get to the beginning test where the RPM and Speedo gauges are tested - then you are back at the start.

If you lose the test mode by not scrolling thru past the end or tuning off the car - you can just start the process all over again by turning off the car and pressing that reset button on the dash and hold it as you start the car.

When these surges occur - you can still use your code scanner, just don't look for DTC's because it may not even have any pending - but it may have issues with several subsystems - those are in your I/M monitors section of your code scanner. Check these subsystems like EVAP and MISFIRE and see if they say READY or NOT READY - then you at least you'd know the sub-system affected and you can figure it out by that.
 
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Thread Starter #15
I’m gonna check it out and see what I find.

Not sure if this problem is related but the key doesn’t unlock/lock the doors with 1 click. I have to push the button a few times now.

Tomorrow I’m gonna check the grounds also. At least they’ll be clean if it doesn’t fix the problem.
 

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#16
Since you have done some engine work, it may be something really simple that got bolted on wrong or during the reassembly something got missed. Like the seal on the Throttle body - leaking -thru the gasket to intake because the seal got pinched, onto something like the PCV hose, not fully seated so it's length and twist makes it prone to get pinched and air cut-off caused by high vacuum from deceleration making the hose able to get pinched due to the length - for now the bend in the hose is too sharp so it collapses under that vacuum pressure.

Loose plugs may not be the culprit, but a bad boot might - so wires are suspected too.

When the engine surges though - that is a sign of either intake air leaks or a low-fuel or poor fuel delivery condition most likely.
 


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